Hi! I stumbled across this piece, and I have a question that I have not seen answered anywhere. From my understanding, the covid vaccines cause some of our own body's cells to produce the covid spike, which in turn causes our immune system to mount a response to whichever of our own cells that produced the spike. Do any other vaccines cause our immune system to go after our own cells? Is it possible that we could see autoimmune issues stemming from this? Any clarification would be welcome. Thanks for taking time to write about this. FWIW - I am fully vaxxed, and I just had my three eligible children vaccinated today. I am genuinely curious about this particular aspect of these vaccines.
Hi Jennifer that is a very good question. Short answer is that viruses like covid themselves have the ability to cause autoimmune reactions, the elaborate safety protocol of this vaccine suggests that this doesn't happen. Maybe in a small sub contingent of already at risk patients (who have a propensity toward unregulated immune responses) but not in the general public. Bear in mind that the vaccine is cleared from the system within two weeks, so if these autoimmune reactions would present themselves it would be within that timeframe.
Here is a longer investigation regarding the likelihood, it also has a reference list to some other studies. As far as I know this has not yet been studied in at risk patients. Great question and good on you for getting your family vaccinated.
Thank you so much for this. I have a friend who's gone super Christian and is refusing the vaccine because she's pregnant. She said she contacted Pfzier and they did not endorse it for pregnant people. Do you have any insights I could pass on to persuade her? I've kinda given up on her but it's hard, we've been friends for 20+ years and I just want to shake her
Hi there and sorry to hear about your friend, don't give up on her - especially if your friendship runs that deep and long. I can fully empathise with you and I know first hand how frustrating it is - but just hang in there and approach the topic with compassion and understanding. Try not to judge and be calm and present and listen to her reservations.
The Pfizer vaccine is completely safe for pregnant women to take and I myself k ow of 4 women who have taken it who have since brought healthy babies to term. I highly doubt any Pfizer representative would have told your friend not to get vaccinated, as the symtpoms from catching covid whilst pregnant can be far worse.
I suggest you listen to this podcast by this amazing woman, Hannah Dahlen, a professor of Midwifery - and relay what you hear to your friend. Ideally, you two could listen to it together... maybe make some popcorn and relax together like old times?
Best of luck and let me know how it goes.
Alternatively you can email me directly and I can send you more detailed info.
Many blessings, stay strong - your friend needs you. Think about it like this, even though she is the religious one, you may very well be saving her soul, by saving her life.
More resources here... it's from NZ midwifery which could help as New Zealand is often viewed as very independent on these issues. I take it you are in the US?
Tried to reply via email, that bounced back to me so will post here instead. How can I email you in the future?
Thanks for getting back to me so quickly! I wasn't expecting anything for a day or two. I'm in NZ actually, I'm based in Dunedin and she's in Christchurch. She also thinks she got Covid while she was in Vietnam in February 2020, though I doubt she could prove this as it's not like she got tested or anything. So I guess she thinks she's got immunity already? She is not an idiot, she's an optometrist and was really driven in our younger days. I'm really bad at having these conversations as I really can never think of any arguments at the time and always sort of take people's arguments as correct until I talk to others who point out stuff I miss. I have a nearly one year old of my own too so don't want to expose him to her, but she's kind of in her own little world at the moment and I doubt she'd notice if I faded away for a while.
Thanks again, I started tearing up when I read your reply. Her latest behaviour has really upset me, I'm kind of resigned that this bright, capable woman is now just going to be a housewife, which she never wanted. But that's a whole different kettle of fish; one thing at a time!
Aww it'll be okay. Sounds like she's going through a tough time and you're trying your best to be a good friend. It's highly unlikely that she got exposed to covid whilst in Vietnam in February of 2020 as there were only a handful of cases at that time. A serology antibody test could confirm of she had an immune repsonse to covid. She can get that at any hospital.
Yes I totally get your sentiment, you need to take care of yourself too mentally. My email is chrisvonroy@gmail.com. if you want I can talk to your friend too. Have spoken to quite a few people over the last few months. Am actually giving a public seminar at Tākaka hospital this sunday which will be live streamed. Email me and I can tell you where to access it.
The Pfizer vaccine is totally endorsed for pregnant women. It saves lives. If your pregnant friend catches Covid-19, her life is at risk, as is her baby's life.
A question: i'm particularly intrigued by the bit where you say 'We are born with DNA that encodes this intricate immune system. This DNA was inherited from our parents who inherited it from theirs and so on. Within the DNA is encoded our immune responses to every bacteria and virus that our ancestors were exposed to over the millenia.'
I thought that I had exactly the same risk of succumbing to polio as my great great grandmother - the reason I didnt get it was because I was vaccinated. This implies that if my great great grandma caught polio, then some of her immune response would be passed to me?
If I've interpreted this correctly then getting vaxxed (or indeed catching COVID and recovering) confers immunity to family who are yet to be conceived? Have I understood this correctly? Can you explain more about this process?
Firstly thank you for reading and this question, which is a really amazing question that we would all love to have the answer for. We know for a fact that we inherit certain abilities to fend off microorganisms that are frequent in the area our ancestors lived in. And we can even measure these genes, it's called HLA mapping (human leukocytes antigen) and it's what they test for in bone marrow transplants. Now the theory goes that at some point in evolution this type of reverse transcribing of proteins that our ancestors encounter on infectious organisms is co ferred into our DNA (by reverse transcribing proteins to peptides to RNA to DNA) but this has to occur in our ova and sperm cells in order to be conferred to our offspring. This process is called epigenetics (the passing on of certain traits that we acquire during our lifetime on to our offspring) and is a relatively new field of study. The reason why it is so counterintuitive is because it goes against some fundamental concepts in darwinian theory - namely that natural selection is random and occurs through mutations and not though the systematic acquisition of traits within a life time. Darwin didn't like that idea at all and hence we never really pursued that line of research. A contemporary of Darwin's, Lamarque actually stated that something like this happened years ago but he got shot down and Darwins theory of evolution trumped over his own.
So I apologise that I can't really give you a definitive answer on this. I would presume that yes it "may" get conferred but I am by no means certain. It is more an intuition than an empirically weighted theory. I actually want to do a larger article on this very phenomenon, I reckon I'll get it out before the new year.
Thanks so much for reading and again, what an excellent question!!
One comment, which may sound like splitting hairs, but actually is important, regarding this: "[...] fundamental concepts in darwinian theory - namely that natural selection is random [...]". Natural selection is not random at all! Genetic mutations may be random, but natural selection works by favouring individuals that are better able to live and procreate in their context than their competitors, and by the elimination of individuals that are not well adapted to the circumstances. So the momentary context and circumstances are providing the selective pressure, and these things are usually fairly stable and everything but random. If they were random evolution would not be possible as it has been happening. In fact, we can see how sudden or catastrophic changes make evolution impossible when looking at the mass extinctions caused by such events.
You're completely right Helmut! I was referring to natural selection being random as the mutations it selects for are random. Bad communication on my part - thanks for pointing this out.
Regarding "This implies that if my great great grandma caught polio, then some of her immune response would be passed to me?" - well, having an infection does not lead to back-coding one's immune response into one's DNA... Your DNA is simply some mix of your ancestors' DNA, plus possibly some random variations. So if one of your ancestors had an infection that their immune system resolved successfully this immune response information cannot have been passed on to you via DNA. But the mere fact that you exist demonstrates that all of your ancestors somehow managed to survive at least to an age that allowed them to procreate. So your DNA is a recipe for success when it comes to survival in an often hostile environment. The children that died from polio before having children of their own have obviously not been able to pass on their DNA.
Whether there is anything relevant to the question of resistance to polio in these DNA differences is still a very complex question, though.
Excellent Helmut. However reverse transcription of lifetime somatic changes specific to immune cells into germline DNA does occur in invertebrates and has been observed some species of fish. The complex nature of our immune system would certainly suggest that there is some epigenetic change happening during our lifetime. Especially when considering that ¾ of all immune responses are encoded genetically. Like you said, resistance to polio in such a short span of time would suggest a type of reverse transcription taking place. We simply do not know enough about the extent of the complexity to be able to say anything with certainty, which is what I was trying to convey above. The fact that these phenotypic alterations could be encoded genetically and passed on in the germline is not that far fetched seeing the biochemical precedent already exists in nature (see bumblebees for instance - attached nature article). It does seem counterintuitive and a little bit woo woo, but many evolutionary biologists have expressed these views before. I hope this makes sense.
You are so right. I too wish there were changes to the system and I'd dearly love for healthcare and health preserving measures like warm and dry housing to be accessible and funded adequately. Unfortunately that's not the case in the now. We need to do the best we can, for the best outcomes, for the most people, with what we have now. 💛
Thank you for reading Ash and you are so right. People criticising the government, forget that they are just humans too, and in the case of Aotearoa, a mother, and were just as overwhelmed by all of this as us regular folk. Compassion has to go both ways.
Christopher thank you so much for this absolute gem (and the many more articles by you that I look forward to discovering on here). I am an old friend of Marks (Wanaka ski days) and it was extra special to hear him read it. I am a young mum and a stage 4 cancer patient and I found it very hard deciding whether to get vaccinated because of my fear (and very vague comprehension) that the spike proteins my body will now always produce (post vaccine) may one day lead to auto immune disfunction - and my immune system being robust is everything in my fight against cancer. I am now double vaxxed. But I'd love to hear your thoughts on this 'theory'.
You mentioned in your article that if you got enough positive feedback that you would write another one on how the immune system works and why vaccines are so important - please do!
Thank you again for sharing your insightful wisdom. Roo
Thanks for your lovely words Roo. So glad to hear that you have been vaccinated. I hope you're doing okay and I want to commend you for getting vaccinated considering the obvious fear and anxiety surrounding your condition.
One thing I think you might have misunderstood about the vaccine is that the spike protein gets continuously produced in the body. This is not what happens, the spike protein is only produced for around 10-14 days whilst the mRNA from the vaccine is in the cells. It disappears after this forever, what remains is your immune cells that have been primed to recognise the spike protein as foreign. The vaccine gets denatured pretty quickly, so you don't need to worry about any autoimmune diseases down the line!
I hope this makes sense, let me know of it doesn't Roo. Ngā mihi e hoa
Love all of this. However not acknowledging the legitimate reasons why people are worried, simply adds fuel to the fire. It cannot be pushed aside that there are very legitimate reasons, worries and concerns why people do not want to take the vaccines, also, it is quite disturbing how the vaccine is placed as our only solution, when we know there are various ways, including a multidrug treatment plan to rid the body of C19. Transmission absolutely happens with vaccinated individuals. In the UK we have a collective of over 60% of the population vaccinated, and yet we are seeing very high cases of covid. These cases are being passed on by vaccinated individuals as well as non vaccinated. You also list some quite horrific things with relation to covid, however, you do not provide context of those horrible things that will happen to a person. You fail to point out that in certain age groups, the likelihood of being hospitalised is so low that it doesn't register, and yet we are vaccinating these individuals, who by evidence based in society, will still pass the virus to others. We are talking about vaccinating children as young as 5. Official NSPCC statistics show that 26 children under the age of 12 in the UK have passed away with covid. 19 of those had severe illness or disability. 4 of those had other severe viruses in their system, 2 had "equipment complications". And 1 child passed away with c19 without any other illness or problems. And we are now talking of vaccinating this age group.... I believe in the power of vaccines and our bodies to work, harmoniously. Simply brandishing somebody with a tag of Anti-vax. Is quite honestly disgusting, divisive and is a piece of language that should be placed in the same trash heap as the word "Brexit". In Australia, if you do not support vaccine mandating, you are classed as anti-vax. If we provide information, that is counter to the current narrative, we are brandished anti-vax. It has become a slur that really means nothing. I suggest we stop turning on one another, hear peoples reasons and move on with our individual lives.
Hi Christopher, very good article, thank you for that.
I have a question regarding the booster. If I understood you well, the second jab is already a precautionary measure pushed by the governmemnt(s); as a "better be safe than sorry" approach. How can we than have some experts telling us that the pfizer vaccine is loosing efficiency after 6 months, and how is it measured then?
Ngā mihi Gerard and thanks for this comment. It's not that the vaccine is losing efficiency, it's more that in some people that have been tested, their antibody response to covid appears to lull after 6 months. The vaccine has fully been denatured after 14 days. So if, for whatever reason, the immune system has not been sufficiently primed at this point, a second dose a few weeks later is advisable. Technically this should be enough for a robust immune response as most people will be producing antibodies to covid for the duration of their life. However, as I have stated before on here, immune systems are highly variable and every individual will show a different response. Because some immune systems appear to lose their ability to produce antibodies after 6 months, the health authorities are erring in the side of caution and getting as many people as possible to get booster jabs. As opposed to screening people and then advising them to get a booster (this would be a logistical maelstrom) they are using a blanket approach and trying to catch everyone.
Personally I would take any booster jab they hand out. Now with the new omnicron variant, it could very well be that an entire new vaccine will be needed. Luckily enough the creators of the original vaccine at BioNTech will have a functioning vaccine ready for this variant in the next 10 days.
Hope this helps Gerard. Let me know if anything is unclear.
Kia ora Christopher, thanks for an excellent read. Do you have any specific insights on getting the vaccine during (any stage) pregnancy? During what is often an anxious time already the vaccine info seems to be a minefield, unfortunately, even for those usually on board with mainstream medical advice; reassurance is not that easy to come by. Thank you in advance
Kia ora and ngā mihi for reading, in regards to pregnancy, I can fully empathise with how stressful this time is and how adding a vaccine on top of all that can often augment the situation. However, there is no reason for alarm, there is nothing in the literature to suggest any complications for pregnant women taking the vaccine, I personally know 4 people who have been immunised with this vaccine whilst pregnant, one was 8 months pregnant. All of these four women have brought healthy babies to term. So unfortunately anecdotal evidence is in this scenario the best I can offer and also the complete absence of any substantive adverse issues published in respectable journals covering the issue. On top of this, there is also zero biological evidence or rationale for why a vaccine wouldn't be recommended during pregnancy. Make sure you check whom you are listening to, I know it's hard, but there are a lot of opportunists out there. Hope this helps you and congratulations!
Thanks so much for your reply, mich appreciated (and affirmed my thoughts on the matter). The implications of covid infection whilst pregnant are concerning enough!
Thanks for reading and your feedback. In a nutshell, in the long history of our use of vaccines, side effects have been extremely rare. The reason for this lies twofold, for one the preclinical and clinical trial procedures that test these vaccines are extremely rigorous and identify side effects very early on. Secondly the nature of vaccines is that they are usually only taken once (or twice in the case of this vaccine) and as such the compounds don't build up in our system like they do with other medications that you take on a daily basis. This is incidentally also why there will NEVER be any longterm side effects, because the active ingredient in the vaccine, the mRNA wrapped in the nano lipid casing, is degraded by the body pretty much on impact and is completely gone from the sytem within 14 days. This renders the argument "but it hasn't been tested long enough" moot and the argument about other vaccines "taking so much longer in clinical trials" are also moot - the main reason vaccines take so long to gain approval has to do with FDA bureaucracy and lack of funding. Both of these were not an issue with this vaccine development as billions were thrown at its development and the FDA lifted all res tape and actually worked together with the industry for once.
I go into side effects in a little bit more detail here.
Great post. Thank you. You say most vaccines are only taken once or at the most twice and this is one reason people shouldn't worry about long term side effects.
However, there is talk of a booster (3rd shot)for this vaccine already and in countries like Israel, they are onto the 4th shot. How would you explain this and the fact that the vaccines effectiveness seems to wane after 6 months.
That is a seriously good question to which I dont really have an answer. It is my understanding that the memory cells created by the first jab should lie dormant in the spinal fluid until covid is encountered. That is the way it works with other infectious agents to which we have immunity. My suspicion is that this varies in everyone and that most people actually establish a robust long term immunity with the first jab and that the health officials are just erring on the side of caution with the second jab. Because of these outliers, they want everyone to get it, so they don't miss anyone? In terms of the booster shots, that's mainly for the elderly and again, those people with an errant immune system that doesnt respond well to the first two shots. Old people struggle with vaccines because they don't have a thymus left (the organ that produces novel t cells - it atrophies from birth and is fully gone by age 60 in men and age 70 in women)..
If I find anything else out, I'll post it here for you. Thanks for reading and your questions, great work!
Hi. Can you point me to any info about a “4th shot” in Israel? I can’t find anything anywhere. Is it possible you’re confused about the fourth wave in Israel, rather than the a 4th shot? Looks to me like they’re still rolling out the 3rd shot, or first booster, with thinking that they might need ongoing boosters (too soon to tell).
Please can you refrain from posting bullshit links on my page. That link spreads false information and is extremely racist ("chinese germs"?) There will only be one warning. Thank you for respecting this.
Hi, this was an interesting read, thank you. Do you have any independent articles on the low transmission you refer to as I keep hearing different thoughts on this? Thanks :)
Hi Jo, thank you for reading, transmission studies are notoriously hard to conduct, hence there aren't many, the best ones about covid are out of Israel and are summed up in this publication quite well (note, it's not very well written but it does a great job of collating the various studies to date)... let me know if you need help deciphering any of it.
Hi Tom, back in 1998 I attended a lecture on HIV vaccine research by then Director of the NIAID, Dr Anthony Fauci, where he said: "the best vaccine is to get infected". That statement still holds true. The immunity conferred by a cleared covid infection would be as robust as that from a vaccine. In essence the same things are happening in both scenarios as the vaccine creates the "illusion" of infection, just like a birth control pill creates the illusion of pregnancy in the body. In both cases (vaccine and infection) reinfection can take place, but the severity of the symptoms is lower as is the viral load - meaning the likelihood of transmission is decreased greatly. The data gathered so far also corroborates this. Hope this helps. Thanks for reading.
Kia Ora Christopher. I'm hoping you can elaborate on the vaccine induced vs natural immunity topic for me. It is my understanding that contracting COVID-19 and surviving it would mean that the body is immune to all of the proteins on and within the virus- not just the spike. Would this mean that your natural immunity would be more robust than the vaccine-induced type to both the current virus and future/further variants? If this is the case, wouldn't it be more beneficial to have only the vulnerable population vaccinated and surround them by a community of naturally immune citizens with less likelihood of transmission, especially of vaccine resistant type variants? I am also struggling to find a reliable resource for the infection and fatality rate of the virus exluding the elderly/vulnerable or immunocompromised i.e. fit and healthy children, young adults and 20,30,40 year olds. What is the actual risk of this virus killing you? It seems many deaths are attributed to COVID when it didn't necessarily cause the death- i.e. dying with COVID vs dying from COVID. Thank you
Amazing contribution and you are very right in what you say. The spike protein is the most important part for our immune cells to recognise as it is the first thing that they come into contact with once covid enters our system. As such it is important to have as many cells programmed to recognise it as foreign so as to stage a repsonse as soon as possible. In this sense it can't hurt to get natural immunity plus vaccine for good measure. This is also the philosophy behind the booster vaccines.
As far as epidemiological data about mortality rate, its all still being processed and will be published as it becomes available but for now I wouldn't concern myself with it. Just rest assured the mortality rate is above 7 times that of a regular flu infection which is pretty bad when considering high transmission rate and ubiquity. I will have another look for you about this data but at the moment it's not really important. Thanks for reading and this great contribution.
Wow, I didn’t expect such a speedy reply- thank you! Amazing what can happen on a rainy day. I found your article so clear and informative- and the comments really helpful. I’d like to think I’m not a fence sitter- perhaps I just have too many ‘why’ questions. I’m happy to consider other viewpoints and certainly value your expert opinion. I’d love to sit down and pick your brain but it seems that won’t be possible as I don’t much like being around other people either ;) I’m hoping you can clear up a few more questions for me? I recently listened to an interview with Dr Robert Malone, the inventor of mRNA technology, and he stated that the risk of vaccine injury could be up to four times higher in a young, healthy person than from actually dying from COVID. Another, Dr Geert Vanden Bossche also stated that having the vaccine suppressed your body’s innate immune system and therefore your ability defend yourself against further variants was almost non-existent and could result in worse outcomes than not being vaccinated. I’d love to hear your views?
I think you should take what anyone who has ever been interviewed by that white supremacist Steve Bannon, with a grain of salt. If Dr. Malone invented mRNA technology then I invented the cell phone. The Atlantic does a good job of addressing this delusional man's skepticism.
As for Bossche, again another attention seeking skeptic, they're a dime a dozen these days. The vaccine does the opposite to your innate immune response, it stimulates it to produce B cells which in turn will encode antibodies to covid for the duration of your whole life. This is the safest vaccine ever developed and all of these naysayers who claim the opposite don't understand neither the technology nor the the nuances of immunology. The antibodies bind the spike protein, and in turn signal phagocytes to come and eat the virus, t cells bind to the virus and cells that harbour replicating virus and kill these cells directly by releasing cytolytic enzymes into the cells. The surface receptor of covid has not changed yet amongst all these variants, so I dont know how he claim that last part. Kind of irresponsible. Feeding the skeptic narrative with blinkers on and confirmation bias. Not a good combo.
Hi Bradley can you specify what in particular? I shy away from speculating about things. I could wager a guess or go on my intuition but as far as I am concerned the immunity established by vaccination and that of infection will be equally robust as they are both being primed primarily against the spike protein, which is, again, the very first glycopeptide the immune system comes into contact with for pur physical reasons as it exists on the outside of the cell.
Thanks for your sharing. Question on the above, why the big push for vaccine passports. I have had covid, tested positive suffered through weeks of terrible symptoms and recovered. I have also seen several of my colleagues completely wiped out for a week or more from the vaccine. Why would I risk (even if there is a small chance) of me having side effects from the vaccine?
Bradley, sorry to hear about your suffering - thanks for reading and asking this excellent question! I don't think you should be required to get vaccinated. There is some literature out there saying that infected and vaccinated confers the most robust immunity but to be honest, I think that is complete bullshit. Again, as I have mentioned to some of the other questions here, I think the governments are just erring on the side of caution. Trying to catch everyone, the ones who refuse to vaccinate as well as those who have been sick already. My brother in Austria got covid, so did his heavily pregnant wife, she was okay and he was like you, out for the count for some weeks... both have been vaccinated now with no side effects.
My favourite part of this is when you cynically talk about people working in real estate and then rediscovering their lust for science - and then admitting you’re no scientist either! Nice work! Great writing style that really takes a few facts and makes a really convincing story about how safe and effective this vaccination is.
It’s great that you’re not wanting to be part of the misinformation network. Hope that works out for you.
Yada-yada-yada, completely devoid of any substance, just the same old psychological manipulation like ego boosting (you, my virtuous friend, trust my "science") and shaming (and you, my skeptical friend, are danger to the society). My family members who spent most part of their lives under a communist regime recognize it instantly.
Glad you got that off your chest. The irony of you writing that comment on a smart phone designed by engineers who follow the laws of science, and sent it up to a satellite orbiting the earth and back down again to me in little old New Zealand, has not gone unnoticed.
Wow, I'm writing it on a smart phone? (it's a Linux laptop, but, sure, same thing for you, very special "scientists" who can't tell science and engineering from their own asses). Sent to a satellite?????
That's outright patronizing. Ironically, I am myself an engineer (Software) with an earlier career in Science, including satellites.
very good read but you could have made it shorter and more palatable by resisting the need to patronise every thinking person out there who is working through the question. i’m pro-vax and Pfizer vaccinated for Covid but not all the unvaccinated are dumb, selfish muppets failing in their civil duty. it’s a terrible and confusing time for everyone. you are blessed as you have had the chance to get a great education and thank you for sharing that data with us, it’s really helpful and generous of you but there’s kinder ways to win over the dissenting voice. your scientific content is able to speak for itself, it doesn’t need the thumping packaging that renders the “unbeliever” to the idiot corner. that said, i have shared this article on because yeh, i want people to get vaccinated even though i know a lot less than you about the vaccine process. people are suffering on both sides of the question. people i love and respect. i’m sure you get my drift.
So all say and I have read all . Answer this question why . In Cambodia were my wife from . And her brother 3vax got covid . His 19 year old son died . They never vaccine pregnant. Or want to be pregnant . And India 1bigest vaccine producers in world does not do virtually no vax . they're using ivermectin . Virtually 0000.1 percent died one city 230 million 56 died covid no vaccine . And not a vaccine . Definition of a vaccine look it up .
Hi John, I'm sorry to hear about your family. In terms of the vaccine rate in India, the WHO reports that 1.2 billion doses have already been administered and nearly half a billion people have been fully immunised. Be careful of the sources you read, only trust official records. Best of luck.
I think John Do is referring to the state of Uttar Pradesh, from several mainstream Indian newspapers as the sources, the state has 230 million people, 22.3% Vaccination rate, has had 22 900 Covid deaths, which is about 0.1% of total infections and 0.01% or total population back in April 2021 their daily case rate topped at 38 000 a day, at last check about a week ago they had 92 cases. The government's approach, along with promoting vaccine and lockdowns is "test, trace and treat" making early treatment available to all. That third T, treat, is what is lacking in many countries' approach, there are several promising pharmaceuticals that can be used in combination, they are off patent, meaning they are cheap and their safety profile is well known since they have been used for decades.
Thanks for that Fred. I guess the main reason that "treat" hasn't been on the scope is that a preventative is a way better option as it keeps people out of ICUs .. treatment only ever happens after the fact. I worked with ritonavir back when I was a graduate student studying HIV, it's one of the adjunct compounds in Pfizer new regimen. The safety profile is well known but certainly not free from risk. Protease inhibitors are non selective and act on protease within human cells too, thereby reducing the immunosurveillance potential of crucial t cells in particular. I highly doubt that the low death rate in Uttar Pradesh is due to ivermectin
Hello, would love to be able to find the article for you, however the data from Uttar Pradesh was found to be flawed and has since been revised. The glowing reports of Ivermectin were proven untrue
Hi! I stumbled across this piece, and I have a question that I have not seen answered anywhere. From my understanding, the covid vaccines cause some of our own body's cells to produce the covid spike, which in turn causes our immune system to mount a response to whichever of our own cells that produced the spike. Do any other vaccines cause our immune system to go after our own cells? Is it possible that we could see autoimmune issues stemming from this? Any clarification would be welcome. Thanks for taking time to write about this. FWIW - I am fully vaxxed, and I just had my three eligible children vaccinated today. I am genuinely curious about this particular aspect of these vaccines.
Hi Jennifer that is a very good question. Short answer is that viruses like covid themselves have the ability to cause autoimmune reactions, the elaborate safety protocol of this vaccine suggests that this doesn't happen. Maybe in a small sub contingent of already at risk patients (who have a propensity toward unregulated immune responses) but not in the general public. Bear in mind that the vaccine is cleared from the system within two weeks, so if these autoimmune reactions would present themselves it would be within that timeframe.
Here is a longer investigation regarding the likelihood, it also has a reference list to some other studies. As far as I know this has not yet been studied in at risk patients. Great question and good on you for getting your family vaccinated.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7833091/
Thank you so much for this. I have a friend who's gone super Christian and is refusing the vaccine because she's pregnant. She said she contacted Pfzier and they did not endorse it for pregnant people. Do you have any insights I could pass on to persuade her? I've kinda given up on her but it's hard, we've been friends for 20+ years and I just want to shake her
Hi there and sorry to hear about your friend, don't give up on her - especially if your friendship runs that deep and long. I can fully empathise with you and I know first hand how frustrating it is - but just hang in there and approach the topic with compassion and understanding. Try not to judge and be calm and present and listen to her reservations.
The Pfizer vaccine is completely safe for pregnant women to take and I myself k ow of 4 women who have taken it who have since brought healthy babies to term. I highly doubt any Pfizer representative would have told your friend not to get vaccinated, as the symtpoms from catching covid whilst pregnant can be far worse.
I suggest you listen to this podcast by this amazing woman, Hannah Dahlen, a professor of Midwifery - and relay what you hear to your friend. Ideally, you two could listen to it together... maybe make some popcorn and relax together like old times?
Best of luck and let me know how it goes.
Alternatively you can email me directly and I can send you more detailed info.
Many blessings, stay strong - your friend needs you. Think about it like this, even though she is the religious one, you may very well be saving her soul, by saving her life.
https://newbornmothers.com/blog/understanding-vaccine-research-with-hannah-dahlen
More resources here... it's from NZ midwifery which could help as New Zealand is often viewed as very independent on these issues. I take it you are in the US?
https://www.midwife.org.nz/women/covid-vaccination-in-pregnancy/
Tried to reply via email, that bounced back to me so will post here instead. How can I email you in the future?
Thanks for getting back to me so quickly! I wasn't expecting anything for a day or two. I'm in NZ actually, I'm based in Dunedin and she's in Christchurch. She also thinks she got Covid while she was in Vietnam in February 2020, though I doubt she could prove this as it's not like she got tested or anything. So I guess she thinks she's got immunity already? She is not an idiot, she's an optometrist and was really driven in our younger days. I'm really bad at having these conversations as I really can never think of any arguments at the time and always sort of take people's arguments as correct until I talk to others who point out stuff I miss. I have a nearly one year old of my own too so don't want to expose him to her, but she's kind of in her own little world at the moment and I doubt she'd notice if I faded away for a while.
Thanks again, I started tearing up when I read your reply. Her latest behaviour has really upset me, I'm kind of resigned that this bright, capable woman is now just going to be a housewife, which she never wanted. But that's a whole different kettle of fish; one thing at a time!
Aww it'll be okay. Sounds like she's going through a tough time and you're trying your best to be a good friend. It's highly unlikely that she got exposed to covid whilst in Vietnam in February of 2020 as there were only a handful of cases at that time. A serology antibody test could confirm of she had an immune repsonse to covid. She can get that at any hospital.
Yes I totally get your sentiment, you need to take care of yourself too mentally. My email is chrisvonroy@gmail.com. if you want I can talk to your friend too. Have spoken to quite a few people over the last few months. Am actually giving a public seminar at Tākaka hospital this sunday which will be live streamed. Email me and I can tell you where to access it.
The Pfizer vaccine is totally endorsed for pregnant women. It saves lives. If your pregnant friend catches Covid-19, her life is at risk, as is her baby's life.
A question: i'm particularly intrigued by the bit where you say 'We are born with DNA that encodes this intricate immune system. This DNA was inherited from our parents who inherited it from theirs and so on. Within the DNA is encoded our immune responses to every bacteria and virus that our ancestors were exposed to over the millenia.'
I thought that I had exactly the same risk of succumbing to polio as my great great grandmother - the reason I didnt get it was because I was vaccinated. This implies that if my great great grandma caught polio, then some of her immune response would be passed to me?
If I've interpreted this correctly then getting vaxxed (or indeed catching COVID and recovering) confers immunity to family who are yet to be conceived? Have I understood this correctly? Can you explain more about this process?
Firstly thank you for reading and this question, which is a really amazing question that we would all love to have the answer for. We know for a fact that we inherit certain abilities to fend off microorganisms that are frequent in the area our ancestors lived in. And we can even measure these genes, it's called HLA mapping (human leukocytes antigen) and it's what they test for in bone marrow transplants. Now the theory goes that at some point in evolution this type of reverse transcribing of proteins that our ancestors encounter on infectious organisms is co ferred into our DNA (by reverse transcribing proteins to peptides to RNA to DNA) but this has to occur in our ova and sperm cells in order to be conferred to our offspring. This process is called epigenetics (the passing on of certain traits that we acquire during our lifetime on to our offspring) and is a relatively new field of study. The reason why it is so counterintuitive is because it goes against some fundamental concepts in darwinian theory - namely that natural selection is random and occurs through mutations and not though the systematic acquisition of traits within a life time. Darwin didn't like that idea at all and hence we never really pursued that line of research. A contemporary of Darwin's, Lamarque actually stated that something like this happened years ago but he got shot down and Darwins theory of evolution trumped over his own.
So I apologise that I can't really give you a definitive answer on this. I would presume that yes it "may" get conferred but I am by no means certain. It is more an intuition than an empirically weighted theory. I actually want to do a larger article on this very phenomenon, I reckon I'll get it out before the new year.
Thanks so much for reading and again, what an excellent question!!
One comment, which may sound like splitting hairs, but actually is important, regarding this: "[...] fundamental concepts in darwinian theory - namely that natural selection is random [...]". Natural selection is not random at all! Genetic mutations may be random, but natural selection works by favouring individuals that are better able to live and procreate in their context than their competitors, and by the elimination of individuals that are not well adapted to the circumstances. So the momentary context and circumstances are providing the selective pressure, and these things are usually fairly stable and everything but random. If they were random evolution would not be possible as it has been happening. In fact, we can see how sudden or catastrophic changes make evolution impossible when looking at the mass extinctions caused by such events.
You're completely right Helmut! I was referring to natural selection being random as the mutations it selects for are random. Bad communication on my part - thanks for pointing this out.
Regarding "This implies that if my great great grandma caught polio, then some of her immune response would be passed to me?" - well, having an infection does not lead to back-coding one's immune response into one's DNA... Your DNA is simply some mix of your ancestors' DNA, plus possibly some random variations. So if one of your ancestors had an infection that their immune system resolved successfully this immune response information cannot have been passed on to you via DNA. But the mere fact that you exist demonstrates that all of your ancestors somehow managed to survive at least to an age that allowed them to procreate. So your DNA is a recipe for success when it comes to survival in an often hostile environment. The children that died from polio before having children of their own have obviously not been able to pass on their DNA.
Whether there is anything relevant to the question of resistance to polio in these DNA differences is still a very complex question, though.
Excellent Helmut. However reverse transcription of lifetime somatic changes specific to immune cells into germline DNA does occur in invertebrates and has been observed some species of fish. The complex nature of our immune system would certainly suggest that there is some epigenetic change happening during our lifetime. Especially when considering that ¾ of all immune responses are encoded genetically. Like you said, resistance to polio in such a short span of time would suggest a type of reverse transcription taking place. We simply do not know enough about the extent of the complexity to be able to say anything with certainty, which is what I was trying to convey above. The fact that these phenotypic alterations could be encoded genetically and passed on in the germline is not that far fetched seeing the biochemical precedent already exists in nature (see bumblebees for instance - attached nature article). It does seem counterintuitive and a little bit woo woo, but many evolutionary biologists have expressed these views before. I hope this makes sense.
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-03640-y
This is wonderful thank you.
You are so right. I too wish there were changes to the system and I'd dearly love for healthcare and health preserving measures like warm and dry housing to be accessible and funded adequately. Unfortunately that's not the case in the now. We need to do the best we can, for the best outcomes, for the most people, with what we have now. 💛
Thank you for reading Ash and you are so right. People criticising the government, forget that they are just humans too, and in the case of Aotearoa, a mother, and were just as overwhelmed by all of this as us regular folk. Compassion has to go both ways.
Christopher thank you so much for this absolute gem (and the many more articles by you that I look forward to discovering on here). I am an old friend of Marks (Wanaka ski days) and it was extra special to hear him read it. I am a young mum and a stage 4 cancer patient and I found it very hard deciding whether to get vaccinated because of my fear (and very vague comprehension) that the spike proteins my body will now always produce (post vaccine) may one day lead to auto immune disfunction - and my immune system being robust is everything in my fight against cancer. I am now double vaxxed. But I'd love to hear your thoughts on this 'theory'.
You mentioned in your article that if you got enough positive feedback that you would write another one on how the immune system works and why vaccines are so important - please do!
Thank you again for sharing your insightful wisdom. Roo
Thanks for your lovely words Roo. So glad to hear that you have been vaccinated. I hope you're doing okay and I want to commend you for getting vaccinated considering the obvious fear and anxiety surrounding your condition.
One thing I think you might have misunderstood about the vaccine is that the spike protein gets continuously produced in the body. This is not what happens, the spike protein is only produced for around 10-14 days whilst the mRNA from the vaccine is in the cells. It disappears after this forever, what remains is your immune cells that have been primed to recognise the spike protein as foreign. The vaccine gets denatured pretty quickly, so you don't need to worry about any autoimmune diseases down the line!
I hope this makes sense, let me know of it doesn't Roo. Ngā mihi e hoa
Love all of this. However not acknowledging the legitimate reasons why people are worried, simply adds fuel to the fire. It cannot be pushed aside that there are very legitimate reasons, worries and concerns why people do not want to take the vaccines, also, it is quite disturbing how the vaccine is placed as our only solution, when we know there are various ways, including a multidrug treatment plan to rid the body of C19. Transmission absolutely happens with vaccinated individuals. In the UK we have a collective of over 60% of the population vaccinated, and yet we are seeing very high cases of covid. These cases are being passed on by vaccinated individuals as well as non vaccinated. You also list some quite horrific things with relation to covid, however, you do not provide context of those horrible things that will happen to a person. You fail to point out that in certain age groups, the likelihood of being hospitalised is so low that it doesn't register, and yet we are vaccinating these individuals, who by evidence based in society, will still pass the virus to others. We are talking about vaccinating children as young as 5. Official NSPCC statistics show that 26 children under the age of 12 in the UK have passed away with covid. 19 of those had severe illness or disability. 4 of those had other severe viruses in their system, 2 had "equipment complications". And 1 child passed away with c19 without any other illness or problems. And we are now talking of vaccinating this age group.... I believe in the power of vaccines and our bodies to work, harmoniously. Simply brandishing somebody with a tag of Anti-vax. Is quite honestly disgusting, divisive and is a piece of language that should be placed in the same trash heap as the word "Brexit". In Australia, if you do not support vaccine mandating, you are classed as anti-vax. If we provide information, that is counter to the current narrative, we are brandished anti-vax. It has become a slur that really means nothing. I suggest we stop turning on one another, hear peoples reasons and move on with our individual lives.
Hi Christopher, very good article, thank you for that.
I have a question regarding the booster. If I understood you well, the second jab is already a precautionary measure pushed by the governmemnt(s); as a "better be safe than sorry" approach. How can we than have some experts telling us that the pfizer vaccine is loosing efficiency after 6 months, and how is it measured then?
Take care and stay safe in golden bay!
Gerard
Ngā mihi Gerard and thanks for this comment. It's not that the vaccine is losing efficiency, it's more that in some people that have been tested, their antibody response to covid appears to lull after 6 months. The vaccine has fully been denatured after 14 days. So if, for whatever reason, the immune system has not been sufficiently primed at this point, a second dose a few weeks later is advisable. Technically this should be enough for a robust immune response as most people will be producing antibodies to covid for the duration of their life. However, as I have stated before on here, immune systems are highly variable and every individual will show a different response. Because some immune systems appear to lose their ability to produce antibodies after 6 months, the health authorities are erring in the side of caution and getting as many people as possible to get booster jabs. As opposed to screening people and then advising them to get a booster (this would be a logistical maelstrom) they are using a blanket approach and trying to catch everyone.
Personally I would take any booster jab they hand out. Now with the new omnicron variant, it could very well be that an entire new vaccine will be needed. Luckily enough the creators of the original vaccine at BioNTech will have a functioning vaccine ready for this variant in the next 10 days.
Hope this helps Gerard. Let me know if anything is unclear.
Many thanks for the clear and very fast reply. Gerard
Kia ora Christopher, thanks for an excellent read. Do you have any specific insights on getting the vaccine during (any stage) pregnancy? During what is often an anxious time already the vaccine info seems to be a minefield, unfortunately, even for those usually on board with mainstream medical advice; reassurance is not that easy to come by. Thank you in advance
Kia ora and ngā mihi for reading, in regards to pregnancy, I can fully empathise with how stressful this time is and how adding a vaccine on top of all that can often augment the situation. However, there is no reason for alarm, there is nothing in the literature to suggest any complications for pregnant women taking the vaccine, I personally know 4 people who have been immunised with this vaccine whilst pregnant, one was 8 months pregnant. All of these four women have brought healthy babies to term. So unfortunately anecdotal evidence is in this scenario the best I can offer and also the complete absence of any substantive adverse issues published in respectable journals covering the issue. On top of this, there is also zero biological evidence or rationale for why a vaccine wouldn't be recommended during pregnancy. Make sure you check whom you are listening to, I know it's hard, but there are a lot of opportunists out there. Hope this helps you and congratulations!
Thanks so much for your reply, mich appreciated (and affirmed my thoughts on the matter). The implications of covid infection whilst pregnant are concerning enough!
Exactly. Those implications far outweigh any danger of side effects from the immunisation! Kia kaha
Good job Chris! If only more people could follow your reasoning :)
Thank you for reading and your kind words Deva! Means a lot.
Good read thank you.
Most of my anti vaccination friends are worried about side effects. How would you handle that in a dinner conversation?
Thanks for reading and your feedback. In a nutshell, in the long history of our use of vaccines, side effects have been extremely rare. The reason for this lies twofold, for one the preclinical and clinical trial procedures that test these vaccines are extremely rigorous and identify side effects very early on. Secondly the nature of vaccines is that they are usually only taken once (or twice in the case of this vaccine) and as such the compounds don't build up in our system like they do with other medications that you take on a daily basis. This is incidentally also why there will NEVER be any longterm side effects, because the active ingredient in the vaccine, the mRNA wrapped in the nano lipid casing, is degraded by the body pretty much on impact and is completely gone from the sytem within 14 days. This renders the argument "but it hasn't been tested long enough" moot and the argument about other vaccines "taking so much longer in clinical trials" are also moot - the main reason vaccines take so long to gain approval has to do with FDA bureaucracy and lack of funding. Both of these were not an issue with this vaccine development as billions were thrown at its development and the FDA lifted all res tape and actually worked together with the industry for once.
I go into side effects in a little bit more detail here.
https://christophervonroy.substack.com/p/is-new-zealand-dropping-the-ball
Great post. Thank you. You say most vaccines are only taken once or at the most twice and this is one reason people shouldn't worry about long term side effects.
However, there is talk of a booster (3rd shot)for this vaccine already and in countries like Israel, they are onto the 4th shot. How would you explain this and the fact that the vaccines effectiveness seems to wane after 6 months.
In terms of vaccine efficacy waning:
That is a seriously good question to which I dont really have an answer. It is my understanding that the memory cells created by the first jab should lie dormant in the spinal fluid until covid is encountered. That is the way it works with other infectious agents to which we have immunity. My suspicion is that this varies in everyone and that most people actually establish a robust long term immunity with the first jab and that the health officials are just erring on the side of caution with the second jab. Because of these outliers, they want everyone to get it, so they don't miss anyone? In terms of the booster shots, that's mainly for the elderly and again, those people with an errant immune system that doesnt respond well to the first two shots. Old people struggle with vaccines because they don't have a thymus left (the organ that produces novel t cells - it atrophies from birth and is fully gone by age 60 in men and age 70 in women)..
If I find anything else out, I'll post it here for you. Thanks for reading and your questions, great work!
Hi. Can you point me to any info about a “4th shot” in Israel? I can’t find anything anywhere. Is it possible you’re confused about the fourth wave in Israel, rather than the a 4th shot? Looks to me like they’re still rolling out the 3rd shot, or first booster, with thinking that they might need ongoing boosters (too soon to tell).
Please can you refrain from posting bullshit links on my page. That link spreads false information and is extremely racist ("chinese germs"?) There will only be one warning. Thank you for respecting this.
Sorry. I only skimmed it. Heres one from Times of Israel.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/virus-czar-calls-to-begin-readying-for-eventual-4th-vaccine-dose/
Hi, this was an interesting read, thank you. Do you have any independent articles on the low transmission you refer to as I keep hearing different thoughts on this? Thanks :)
Hi Jo, thank you for reading, transmission studies are notoriously hard to conduct, hence there aren't many, the best ones about covid are out of Israel and are summed up in this publication quite well (note, it's not very well written but it does a great job of collating the various studies to date)... let me know if you need help deciphering any of it.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8287551/
Christopher, would you chime in on the effectiveness of natural immunity from having survived COVID?
Hi Tom, back in 1998 I attended a lecture on HIV vaccine research by then Director of the NIAID, Dr Anthony Fauci, where he said: "the best vaccine is to get infected". That statement still holds true. The immunity conferred by a cleared covid infection would be as robust as that from a vaccine. In essence the same things are happening in both scenarios as the vaccine creates the "illusion" of infection, just like a birth control pill creates the illusion of pregnancy in the body. In both cases (vaccine and infection) reinfection can take place, but the severity of the symptoms is lower as is the viral load - meaning the likelihood of transmission is decreased greatly. The data gathered so far also corroborates this. Hope this helps. Thanks for reading.
Kia Ora Christopher. I'm hoping you can elaborate on the vaccine induced vs natural immunity topic for me. It is my understanding that contracting COVID-19 and surviving it would mean that the body is immune to all of the proteins on and within the virus- not just the spike. Would this mean that your natural immunity would be more robust than the vaccine-induced type to both the current virus and future/further variants? If this is the case, wouldn't it be more beneficial to have only the vulnerable population vaccinated and surround them by a community of naturally immune citizens with less likelihood of transmission, especially of vaccine resistant type variants? I am also struggling to find a reliable resource for the infection and fatality rate of the virus exluding the elderly/vulnerable or immunocompromised i.e. fit and healthy children, young adults and 20,30,40 year olds. What is the actual risk of this virus killing you? It seems many deaths are attributed to COVID when it didn't necessarily cause the death- i.e. dying with COVID vs dying from COVID. Thank you
Amazing contribution and you are very right in what you say. The spike protein is the most important part for our immune cells to recognise as it is the first thing that they come into contact with once covid enters our system. As such it is important to have as many cells programmed to recognise it as foreign so as to stage a repsonse as soon as possible. In this sense it can't hurt to get natural immunity plus vaccine for good measure. This is also the philosophy behind the booster vaccines.
As far as epidemiological data about mortality rate, its all still being processed and will be published as it becomes available but for now I wouldn't concern myself with it. Just rest assured the mortality rate is above 7 times that of a regular flu infection which is pretty bad when considering high transmission rate and ubiquity. I will have another look for you about this data but at the moment it's not really important. Thanks for reading and this great contribution.
Wow, I didn’t expect such a speedy reply- thank you! Amazing what can happen on a rainy day. I found your article so clear and informative- and the comments really helpful. I’d like to think I’m not a fence sitter- perhaps I just have too many ‘why’ questions. I’m happy to consider other viewpoints and certainly value your expert opinion. I’d love to sit down and pick your brain but it seems that won’t be possible as I don’t much like being around other people either ;) I’m hoping you can clear up a few more questions for me? I recently listened to an interview with Dr Robert Malone, the inventor of mRNA technology, and he stated that the risk of vaccine injury could be up to four times higher in a young, healthy person than from actually dying from COVID. Another, Dr Geert Vanden Bossche also stated that having the vaccine suppressed your body’s innate immune system and therefore your ability defend yourself against further variants was almost non-existent and could result in worse outcomes than not being vaccinated. I’d love to hear your views?
I think you should take what anyone who has ever been interviewed by that white supremacist Steve Bannon, with a grain of salt. If Dr. Malone invented mRNA technology then I invented the cell phone. The Atlantic does a good job of addressing this delusional man's skepticism.
https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2021/08/robert-malone-vaccine-inventor-vaccine-skeptic/619734/
As for Bossche, again another attention seeking skeptic, they're a dime a dozen these days. The vaccine does the opposite to your innate immune response, it stimulates it to produce B cells which in turn will encode antibodies to covid for the duration of your whole life. This is the safest vaccine ever developed and all of these naysayers who claim the opposite don't understand neither the technology nor the the nuances of immunology. The antibodies bind the spike protein, and in turn signal phagocytes to come and eat the virus, t cells bind to the virus and cells that harbour replicating virus and kill these cells directly by releasing cytolytic enzymes into the cells. The surface receptor of covid has not changed yet amongst all these variants, so I dont know how he claim that last part. Kind of irresponsible. Feeding the skeptic narrative with blinkers on and confirmation bias. Not a good combo.
Thank you, that’s very helpful Christopher
Can you have another go at answering the above?
Hi Bradley can you specify what in particular? I shy away from speculating about things. I could wager a guess or go on my intuition but as far as I am concerned the immunity established by vaccination and that of infection will be equally robust as they are both being primed primarily against the spike protein, which is, again, the very first glycopeptide the immune system comes into contact with for pur physical reasons as it exists on the outside of the cell.
Thanks for your sharing. Question on the above, why the big push for vaccine passports. I have had covid, tested positive suffered through weeks of terrible symptoms and recovered. I have also seen several of my colleagues completely wiped out for a week or more from the vaccine. Why would I risk (even if there is a small chance) of me having side effects from the vaccine?
Bradley, sorry to hear about your suffering - thanks for reading and asking this excellent question! I don't think you should be required to get vaccinated. There is some literature out there saying that infected and vaccinated confers the most robust immunity but to be honest, I think that is complete bullshit. Again, as I have mentioned to some of the other questions here, I think the governments are just erring on the side of caution. Trying to catch everyone, the ones who refuse to vaccinate as well as those who have been sick already. My brother in Austria got covid, so did his heavily pregnant wife, she was okay and he was like you, out for the count for some weeks... both have been vaccinated now with no side effects.
Great info. Thanks Christopher!
My favourite part of this is when you cynically talk about people working in real estate and then rediscovering their lust for science - and then admitting you’re no scientist either! Nice work! Great writing style that really takes a few facts and makes a really convincing story about how safe and effective this vaccination is.
It’s great that you’re not wanting to be part of the misinformation network. Hope that works out for you.
Yada-yada-yada, completely devoid of any substance, just the same old psychological manipulation like ego boosting (you, my virtuous friend, trust my "science") and shaming (and you, my skeptical friend, are danger to the society). My family members who spent most part of their lives under a communist regime recognize it instantly.
Glad you got that off your chest. The irony of you writing that comment on a smart phone designed by engineers who follow the laws of science, and sent it up to a satellite orbiting the earth and back down again to me in little old New Zealand, has not gone unnoticed.
Science is good when it suits you right?
Wow, I'm writing it on a smart phone? (it's a Linux laptop, but, sure, same thing for you, very special "scientists" who can't tell science and engineering from their own asses). Sent to a satellite?????
That's outright patronizing. Ironically, I am myself an engineer (Software) with an earlier career in Science, including satellites.
very good read but you could have made it shorter and more palatable by resisting the need to patronise every thinking person out there who is working through the question. i’m pro-vax and Pfizer vaccinated for Covid but not all the unvaccinated are dumb, selfish muppets failing in their civil duty. it’s a terrible and confusing time for everyone. you are blessed as you have had the chance to get a great education and thank you for sharing that data with us, it’s really helpful and generous of you but there’s kinder ways to win over the dissenting voice. your scientific content is able to speak for itself, it doesn’t need the thumping packaging that renders the “unbeliever” to the idiot corner. that said, i have shared this article on because yeh, i want people to get vaccinated even though i know a lot less than you about the vaccine process. people are suffering on both sides of the question. people i love and respect. i’m sure you get my drift.
Thanks for reading and your candid feedback, duly noted
So all say and I have read all . Answer this question why . In Cambodia were my wife from . And her brother 3vax got covid . His 19 year old son died . They never vaccine pregnant. Or want to be pregnant . And India 1bigest vaccine producers in world does not do virtually no vax . they're using ivermectin . Virtually 0000.1 percent died one city 230 million 56 died covid no vaccine . And not a vaccine . Definition of a vaccine look it up .
Hi John, I'm sorry to hear about your family. In terms of the vaccine rate in India, the WHO reports that 1.2 billion doses have already been administered and nearly half a billion people have been fully immunised. Be careful of the sources you read, only trust official records. Best of luck.
I think John Do is referring to the state of Uttar Pradesh, from several mainstream Indian newspapers as the sources, the state has 230 million people, 22.3% Vaccination rate, has had 22 900 Covid deaths, which is about 0.1% of total infections and 0.01% or total population back in April 2021 their daily case rate topped at 38 000 a day, at last check about a week ago they had 92 cases. The government's approach, along with promoting vaccine and lockdowns is "test, trace and treat" making early treatment available to all. That third T, treat, is what is lacking in many countries' approach, there are several promising pharmaceuticals that can be used in combination, they are off patent, meaning they are cheap and their safety profile is well known since they have been used for decades.
Thanks for that Fred. I guess the main reason that "treat" hasn't been on the scope is that a preventative is a way better option as it keeps people out of ICUs .. treatment only ever happens after the fact. I worked with ritonavir back when I was a graduate student studying HIV, it's one of the adjunct compounds in Pfizer new regimen. The safety profile is well known but certainly not free from risk. Protease inhibitors are non selective and act on protease within human cells too, thereby reducing the immunosurveillance potential of crucial t cells in particular. I highly doubt that the low death rate in Uttar Pradesh is due to ivermectin
Hello, would love to be able to find the article for you, however the data from Uttar Pradesh was found to be flawed and has since been revised. The glowing reports of Ivermectin were proven untrue
Thank you Amanda! I must say I'm not really surprised there.